What could happen if we reimagined traditional models of leadership? In this last episode of the season, we hear from two leaders who have done just that. Side by side, Monisha Kapila and Bianca Casanova Anderson lead ProInspire, a nonprofit that envisions an equitable and just society. Monisha and Bianca join Gali to break down what led the organization to adopt a co-CEO model, how the arrangement is working out for them, and the opportunities and challenges of fully shared leadership.
What could happen if we reimagined traditional models of leadership? In this last episode of the season, we hear from two leaders who have done just that. Side by side, Monisha Kapila and Bianca Casanova Anderson lead ProInspire, a nonprofit that envisions an equitable and just society. Monisha and Bianca join Gali to break down what led the organization to adopt a co-CEO model, how the arrangement is working out for them, and the opportunities and challenges of fully shared leadership.
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[00:00:00] Gali Cooks: Hi, I'm Gali Cooks and you're listening to Just Leading where we're thinking differently about leadership within and beyond the Jewish world. All season we've been talking to people who are leading through the complex challenges of today to understand how we can build a better future. It's been so interesting to learn about the different approaches to exercising leadership. Today we want to leave you with one last conversation.
[00:00:27] Bianca Casanova Anderson: I always wanted a more humane leadership experience. I always wanted an experience that didn't feel like I was overburdened.
[00:00:35] Monisha Kapila: Having two leaders is so important for the sustainability of the leadership. And I think our work is much better.
[00:00:45] Gali Cooks: You just heard co-CEOs Monisha Kapila and Bianca Casanova Anderson. Together, Monisha and Bianca lead ProInspire, a nonprofit that is all about activating social impact leaders to accelerate equity. They help [00:01:00] hundreds of organizations with the ultimate goal of creating a more just and equitable society. And what's fascinating to me is that their leadership is fully shared while past guests like Vu Le embody a more revolutionary approach to leading change, and Mamie Kanfer Stewart takes a more evolutionary approach, Monisha and Bianca have a true partnership. Let's get right into it.
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[00:01:24] Gali Cooks: Bianca Casanova Anderson and Monisha Kapila thank you so much for joining us.
[00:01:29] Monisha Kapila: Happy to be here.
[00:01:31] Bianca Casanova Anderson: Happy to be here with you.
[00:01:32] Gali Cooks: I have so many questions for you, both. So I want to start really about how you got to where you are as co-CEOs of ProInspire.
So Bianca, I'm super interested in how your experience as an educator influenced your leadership. And if you could take us through your leadership journey.
[00:01:51] Bianca Casanova Anderson: Yeah, well, I really started growing up in Dallas, Texas with the name Bianca Casanova Anderson and being teased a little bit, not [00:02:00] knowing who I really was with my racial identity and my ethnicity, my family being from Panama and Cuba on my mother's side and from Texas on my father's side, and really having a complex racial identity is what led me to want to be a teacher. I remember those feelings of not feeling like I belonged and never wanting another child, especially another Black girl to feel that way. And working as a teacher, I began to see that there was a different experience that children from maybe working class backgrounds, Black students, they were having a different educational experience than most middle-class or their white counterparts.
And that's what led me to leading a nonprofit in Dallas, called the Center for Racial Justice and Education. We did a lot of trainings for teachers and parents, educators around issues of race and racism, but leading a nonprofit in the south as a Black woman and trying to get people to talk about issues of race and racism was really hard. [00:03:00] And I began to experience some of the ways that this nonprofit sector can feel really inhumane, just like one person doing it all by themselves. And I knew that very quickly, I was going to burn out. And in fact, I did. So I decided that job was no longer for me. I wanted to create a system change differently and was introduced to ProInspire's work. So met Monisha and the team. And I say like, I just fell in love with the organization and with the mission. So that's really how I ended up here.
[00:03:31] Gali Cooks: You kind of alluded to this, but I wonder as you were growing up, were there any role models or mentors that kind of steered you into that path?
[00:03:41] Bianca Casanova Anderson: Yeah. So I had the privilege of going to a school in Dallas called St. Phillips. It was an Episcopal school. It was all Black teachers and surrounded in a really like a Black community. And we'd talk about how our ancestors had sacrificed to make our future bright. So I knew from a [00:04:00] really young child that yes, I was Black and that came with complexities living in the United States. But my Blackness was powerful. My Blackness was something that actually I should embrace and, and be proud of it. And so that really shaped how I show up in the world and what I wanted to begin to be able to offer to other kids who are maybe going through a different educational experience and didn't quite feel like they belonged. I wanted them to know that it was the thing that they felt different, that thing that makes them feel different is actually what makes them powerful.
[00:04:31] Gali Cooks: Oh, my God. Okay. Goosebumps all over. Wow. Okay. So Monisha, I'm wondering if you could also take us through your leadership journey, which seems to span some sectors as I know you have some significant corporate experience and you're the founder of ProInspire.
[00:04:48] Monisha Kapila: Yeah, it's so fun to do this with Bianca, because we sometimes realize some shared experiences. I often say that my journey started with my childhood growing up as a first generation immigrant in Flint, [00:05:00] Michigan. My parents had immigrated from India and growing up in Flint, I had the opportunity to be really involved in community organizations and non-profits and other things that really supported me. So when I went off to the University of Michigan, I started to organize programs to have students working at nonprofits every week, and really felt so connected to working in the nonprofit sector. At the same time I was doing my undergrad in business.
And so I was looking around and saying, you know, I don't see people who look like me at non-profits and the entry-level pay is too low. And it felt like something that was really only open to people who had a lot of privilege. So I started in the business world, spent a few years in consulting at the same time, my mom who had terminal breast cancer passed away.
And so that was a wake up call for me of, you know, what am I waiting for? Yes, I'm making a good living. And I was learning a lot in management consulting, but I wasn't doing work that was values aligned. And so I took a leave of absence. I [00:06:00] went to India, this was in 2001 after a big earthquake in Gujarat.
And I worked at a nonprofit, I was helping artisans who'd been impacted by the earthquake to rebuild their businesses and find new markets to sell them to. And I love the fact that I could take my business experience, but do it for something mission oriented. And so when I came back, I worked at another nonprofit.
And then I went to business school and in business school, I was really thinking about this kind of intersection of business and non-profit and social enterprise and believing that there's so much that can be done to lead to social change, and it can come in many different forms. So it was constantly kind of going back and forth.
And from each of these experiences learned a lot. That became part of the things that I was able to bring when I eventually decided to start ProInspire and that kind of idea came, I was at a conference and was learning about, at that time Bridgespan had published research on the nonprofit leadership deficit.
And I remember sitting there thinking, well, there are so [00:07:00] many things I've seen that could be done around this, about how we could expand talent pipelines; people like me who wanted to work in the nonprofit sector, but didn't see a way in. And so I spent six months talking to a lot of people while I was still working and exploring and then decided to go and launch ProInspire. And really the focus of our work is around supporting individuals, organizations, and the sector to advance racial equity.
[00:07:23] Gali Cooks: Oh my God. Okay. Goosebumps there too.
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[00:07:31] Gali Cooks: You both share the CEO role. I remember seeing the announcement, Bianca. I remember you being announced. I was like, is this succession? Like, okay, cause that's smart. I get it. I totally get it. Like let's be equals and then I'm out, you know, that kinda thing. So I'm wondering if you both can speak about why you made this decision and then I really want to unpack how y'all do it.
[00:07:54] Monisha Kapila: Absolutely. So we started it as part of succession planning at ProInspire. In [00:08:00] 2018 I had been with the organization for nine years and had a sabbatical and started to have the conversations of what would we need at ProInspire to be able to have a clear succession plan. And when we were hiring for directors, our board chair at the time, Isabel Moses, you know, really advised me to be thinking about who could take over your role when you're hiring. And when I met Bianca, I was like, I could go work for her.
And Bianca started in January, 2020, which ended up being the most challenging year for me leading ProInspire because of the pandemic. My kids were home. My spouse works in hospitals and, and then the kind of racial justice awakening, all of a sudden meant the demand for our work skyrocketed. And we had kept our teams small through the pandemic because we weren't sure what was going to be the impact on our kind of budget. So all of a sudden we were dealing with so much [00:09:00] interest at a small team and Bianca just led in such an amazing way. And as the boards started to have some conversations about succession planning we were talking about more traditional models.
Like, should we have Bianca become a chief program officer? And Isabel had worked with some co-director models and said, what about trying that at ProInspire? And I was like, I would love to do that. I don't know if Bianca would want to do that. You know, working with the founder in that way. And we started to have conversations and we both felt like this actually felt really right for the organization and right for the two of us. For me at that point, like feeling like this would be a new role for me and an opportunity for me to learn and think differently about my leadership, how am I sharing leadership in a new way? And so initially we really were presenting it to the board as part of succession planning.
And the board said, when Monisha leaves, you can run this organization and you'll have our full support. And if you feel like you want a co-CEO model, then we'll [00:10:00] work with that. And so. Now a year later, we are sort of saying, we think this should be a more permanent model that, when I do leave in the next few years, there would be a pathway for another co-CEO.
[00:10:10] Bianca Casanova Anderson: Yeah from the beginning I did share, you know, I think I would never want to do this alone based on a past experience, which I'll share a little bit about, but I also appreciated the full support and "we see you and we want to honor you and your leadership and whatever that may look like." So a little bit about how I entered into this conversation with ProInspire.
In my last leadership experience, I really saw, and in my work have seen that proximity, especially for me as a Black woman, but for those of us who come from communities that have been historically marginalized, when we do our nonprofit work, it's not just about a job it's like, because I need my community, my outcomes need to change.
So my desire to [00:11:00] do this work comes from a place of purpose, not just career. And so that proximity though, to the issue or the community that's most impacted, also creates a burden. I feel responsible and at a level of responsibility that for me, as an individual leader of an organization, it felt very unsustainable because I wasn't able to have boundaries with my job.
I wasn't able to really have balance in my work because so much of leading a nonprofit is being in the community, being connected, like going, going, going. And it contributed to then my life did not feel balanced. And I know now that part of my work in trying to create change is also changing me. It is deconstructing my like grind mentality. My worth is in my work.
It's deconstructing that and saying, no, my worth is in my being. And I can actually have a [00:12:00] full and balanced life and still be able to to lead an organization. So leading with that perspective, I always wanted a more humane leadership experience. I always wanted an experience that didn't feel like I was overburdened with like, having to kind of do it all because I'm trying to let that Black woman superhero, you can do it all, over reliance on Black people's labor. I'm trying to release that.
And so in the partnership with Monisha and with our board, it has felt like we, we want to support you with releasing that. And how do we also deprogram ourselves as an organization that has been very reliant on the labor of women of color? Right. A sector that has been very reliant on the labor of women of color. How do we actually start to create a more sustainable leadership experience? And to me, one way is by sharing the responsibility of leadership. So with this partnership, I feel like we both get to stand fully in our power and we get to [00:13:00] share the responsibility that, that holds right. And that feels really good.
[00:13:05] Gali Cooks: Oh, my God. That sounds really good. As a solo CEO, I'm kind of like incredibly envious.
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[00:13:14] Gali Cooks: So how do you do it? How do you do it? What does that portfolio split look like?
[00:13:19] Monisha Kapila: When we were first having these conversations, our HR partner facilitated a session with us to kind of do a division of responsibilities and literally go through all the things that as sole CEO I had been holding. And what would it look like to share those? So that there was some clarity around what responsibilities each of us have, but also where we would need alignment because there were definitely some pieces in there where both of our names were on them. And the alignment part is really important. And I think a practice that has been supportive is at least every other week, we're spending two hours, Friday morning.
It's one of things I look forward to, and it's just our time to talk through what are we noticing? What are the things that we are both working on together? The [00:14:00] areas that we are responsible for, how do we share what's coming up in those? So we each are aware of what may have impacts on the organization. And I think a big learning for me is Bianca has really taught me in those to like, how to slow down, like as the founder and someone who's been doing this for a long time, I have worked at a pace of like, okay, this happened, let's move on it.
And Bianca has really pushed me to say, well, let's pause and reflect you know, what's coming up. What might this mean about a practice we need or a policy we need to write down? And so I think that is also really important for the organization. Sustainability that in this partnership, I may bring this kind of historical perspective, but she also brings this well, what does this need to mean for how we do things going forward?
[00:14:45] Bianca Casanova Anderson: Yeah, it is, it's, so I think our partnership is unique in that it is co CEO. So first time for the organization to have a co CEO model. And it's also founder and first CEO that is not founder. Right. So I [00:15:00] do think it may look different you know, when we have a set of co-CEOs who are neither Monisha or myself. So it may look a little different, but my hope is that we can create it to where is this not a job that is so dependent on person.
Because again, we're trying to share the leadership of ProInspire. To be very dependent on one particular individual, no matter how brilliant and amazing that individual may be. It's not really a sustainable job then. That's really what I'm trying to help us create is as an organization, how do we share the leadership of ProInspire so that it's not that more traditional ED model where it's like, one charismatic leader. It's like, no, we have a vision for our organization and we lead it together. And that I think is easier on a piece of paper to like write down oh you do this, I do that. You do this. I do that. It doesn't always show up that way. So the two hour meeting, we, we have to talk a lot. [00:16:00]
[00:16:00] Gali Cooks: Yeah. I was going to ask about like the mechanics, how do you make this work?
[00:16:05] Bianca Casanova Anderson: Now we have an amazing coach.
[00:16:07] Gali Cooks: Brilliant.
[00:16:08] Bianca Casanova Anderson: And we, uh, we are resourced and supported in our partnership. And that really is what helps as well.
[00:16:15] Monisha Kapila: Resourcing is really important as organizations look at this that, you know, having two leaders in the CEO or executive director role, I think is so important for the sustainability of the leadership. And I think our work is much better. The way that we're able to support our team is much stronger and organizations have to be ready to make that investment because it may not be that you just have those two folks. You know, we definitely recommend having other roles that can take on some of the responsibilities. So the co-CEOs can focus on what's needed.
[00:16:48] Bianca Casanova Anderson: And one other nuance I think that we're noticing, but maybe didn't know ahead of time was what the difference it requires from the board of directors as well, because for [00:17:00] them, they now have two co-CEOs. Right? So it has to be from everyone, not just the two people in the position, because it does require something from the full team, the full organization.
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[00:17:19] Gali Cooks: What advice would you give to leaders who are thinking about a more mindfully shared leadership model, especially in the C-suite? What advice would you give to leaders who want to go down the co-CEO road?
[00:17:35] Bianca Casanova Anderson: Life is a lot more fun with other people than it is by myself. So if you think, you know, you might like it, I'd go for it. It does require communication. I tell Monisha often I'm a single person and this is the longest relationship I've ever been in. It just requires me to lean in to some skills that I have not historically chosen to lean [00:18:00] into, you know, but it's opening up some other like, oh, well maybe I can do this. You know? So it definitely feels like a chosen deep relationship.
[00:18:10] Monisha Kapila: The other thing I would add, particularly if an organization, it goes down this path with someone who's been in the ED or as founder role, really the sort of self-awareness you need coming into it, which is that you are really going to share the responsibilities and share the power. And that it's not just like a check the box. I think there's a lot of self-reflection that you have to do. And I know one of the things that came up when our board was, you know, meeting with Bianca was, well, what if you have a strategic difference of what you think, and that can be where there's challenges in this model.
And because we were thinking about this also as succession as part of that, I said, well, If that happens, the board has to coach me to step back because really we want to be leaning into Bianca's vision for the organization. And so I think as we try to make [00:19:00] this a more permanent model, we'll be exploring what do you do when you have those strategic differences? And some of those pieces.
So the ability to kind of navigate the conflict as Bianca said, like, like any long relationship. The, you know, where do you compromise? Where do you, how do you listen deeply? But I feel like our decisions are much better. I learn a lot from listening and you hear things in a different way when someone is kind of sharing that same role than when you're a CEO or ED and you have people who report into you giving you that feedback. So I think that we're going to see more of this model in the future.
[00:19:37] Gali Cooks: Yeah, it seems like it. I mean, we are seeing a little bit more sophistication, definitely people who are frankly tired and want to not burn out because there is passion, they see that this is their calling and it's like, okay, what's more sustainable here? And can I get support for the ultra marathon kind of thing? How do you each personally tend to your inner wellbeing? What feeds your engine [00:20:00] to keep going?
[00:20:01] Bianca Casanova Anderson: I know for me, I moved to DC in January, 2020. And so we thought we would be going to the office. I saw a whole life. Didn't happen. So I had to really get clearer on what joy looks like for me, what a fulfilling and meaningful life could look like even in my little pod with my dog. Right. So going outside, being in nature, movement, just really allowing myself to have a more embodied leadership experience helps me to process what I may be going through. Right. So like feeling things within my body being outside breathwork that definitely helps me to sustain my.
[00:20:43] Monisha Kapila: For me, I have two kids who are in elementary school and I don't know if it's this inner wellbeing, but there's a lot of peace that comes from just being with family and there's a never ending set of things you can be [00:21:00] doing when you have kids at this age, but also creating space to not be doing.
I don't work on the weekends and like to really use that time for myself or my family. And one of the things that I've been trying to focus on even more, I think particularly since we've moved to this co CEO model and tried to set more work boundaries for our staff is taking up things like swimming so that I am creating new ways of doing the inner work and also things that I haven't done in a long time.
[00:21:31] Gali Cooks: Beautiful. Beautiful. That's wonderful. Well, you both are incredibly inspiring leaders, a lot of like just ripples of impact. So I just want to thank you both for unbelievable leadership and truly inspiring.
[00:21:44] Bianca Casanova Anderson: Aw, thank you. This was such a fantastic conversation. Really appreciate it.
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[00:21:52] Gali Cooks: Check out Monisha and Bianca's work at proinspire.org. Thank you for tuning into another season of Just Leading. [00:22:00] We hope you felt as inspired and fortified by these conversations as we have. If you'd like to stay in the loop about what we're up to, you can follow our work through the Jews of Color Initiative jewsofcolorinitiative.org, the SRE Network at srenetwork.org and Leading Edge at leadingedge.org. Thanks again to the Harry and Jeanette Weinberg Foundation for their support in making this series possible. And to Wonder Media Network and Anna McClain for producing this season.